Awesome. Just wanted to know if someone was even thinking of these things.

Interface design is different from graphic/web design. I thought I stated that I am a HUGE fan of Jesse Bennett-Chamberlain. There was no disrespect intended there or to Ellislabs(love the name).

“(presuming there even was an interface design)”

The line seems flameish now but it was meant to allude to the fact that many companies don’t actually put time/money effort in to interface design and testing and that assuming EllisLabs (love that damn name)did was an assumption(not the norm).

Having tabs disappear when selected on some pages (thus never showing their selected state) is poor interface design easily remedied by adding the tab interface element to the tabless portions of the site, or making them not-tabs.

As for the logo changing state without any visual clues: it is common now(due to novice developers installing phpBB and not altering the link or the logo), yet it is still problematic. It’s like changing the brake pedal to be a gas pedal without telling the driver.

The disappearing tabs and function-changing logo are both interface flaws. Bringing them up usually bring out one of three responses.

1.) They are caused by lack of back end software integration, the cost/benefit does not merit change
2.) In our rush to get our new site up we didn’t notice. Thanks.
3.) We like it that way!

Please: NO disrespect meant. Just trying to help!! (it’s my day job)

In case anyone’s not seen it yet, we’ve just published an article by the designer of the new EllisLab network of sites, Jesse Bennett-Chamberlain, over at Digital Web:

http://www.digital-web.com/articles/redesigning_the_expressionengine_site/

Nice article and nice fantagraphics avatar icon.

Okay, I’ll chime in.

Overall, the site looks great.  I do feel that it moved CI away from the “lean and clean” mentality, but hey, it looks nice.  I have no problems with the font colors or the text sizing or a number of other things (although the vertical spacing in topic lists is about double what it needs to be).  I do, however, have problems with a number of other things:

Firstly, and I had this beef with the previous design, why the hell isn’t the navigation consistent?  Is it unreasonable to assume that I may want to browse the CI forums for a while, then maybe check out the documentation, then hang out at the Wiki for a bit, then back to the forums?  Why do I need to screw around with a ton of needless clicking when a proper navigational structure would solve it all?  Derek (you’re the man, by the way) mentions:

The wiki and forum are self contained, and while they share some of the navigation and branding features, they don’t share all.  This is partially because they are meant to be self-standing.

Honestly, this logic completely escapes me.  CI is a tool.  The documentation, wiki, and forums are all part of that tool.  That’s like keeping your sockets on one side of the garage, your wrench on the opposing wall, and maybe hiding the screwdrivers under the bench.  We use all these things at the same time.  Why on earth should they be stand-alone?

Fortunately, this one is easy to fix.  You see those nice tabs on the home page?  Put them on every page.  Problem solved.

Secondly, I do not understand why you made the choices you did with linking the logo to different parts of the site.  It’s not the different destinations that bugs me - it’s the fact that you don’t convey this information in any way whatsoever.  I mean, come on, put a subtitle under it that says “Forum home” or “Wiki main page” or anything that lets the user know that something else is going to happen.  When I click a link with the biggest icon on the page next to some large text saying “Code Igniter”, guess where I’m expecting to end up?  How’s that sit with your usability model?

the underlying sign of good usability is that it empowers the users

You make a good point here, but what you should really take from this is that you should cater to your users’ expectations.

Third, why oh why did you break all my bookmarks?  I mean, I’ll take your explanation and assume that it was a good idea to merge the EE and the CI forums.  You don’t think that it would have been possible to, when a conflict with thread IDs was encountered, create a link at the top of the page that said “You may be trying to find an old page with this ID.  The new page can be found here”?  I’m no database wizard, but I’d bet you money out of my own pocket that I could rig something like that up.

And on that topic, why bother merging the EE and CI forums if I can’t access both (you even say in the news post that “Once you are a member of one site, you’re a member at all sites”)?  For example, the home page for the ExpressionEngine Forums is just… well, blank.  Why?

These three (or four, if you count the last one) issues have honestly really put me off of CI.  I still think it’s the best thing around, and I’m still going to recommend it to those that I work with, as well as those I don’t.  I think the community is by and large wonderful, comprised of helpful members eager to lend a hand.  However, until some of these issues are taken care of, I’ll be hesitant to start any new projects in CI, as I’m not especially confident in the direction you guys seem to be taking this project.  I’ll definitely be keeping a close eye on this, however, as I feel you have the potential to salvage this situation easily enough and keep your users happy at the same time.

Firstly, and I had this beef with the previous design, why the hell isn’t the navigation consistent?  Is it unreasonable to assume that I may want to browse the CI forums for a while, then maybe check out the documentation, then hang out at the Wiki for a bit, then back to the forums?  Why do I need to screw around with a ton of needless clicking when a proper navigational structure would solve it all?  Derek (you’re the man, by the way) mentions:

Consistent navigation seems like a no-brainer to me too and your example is the one that gets me as well. I am always bouncing back and forth between the forum and the amazing docs. It’s a pain right now.

Buzz words aside, what’s the point of site navigation (like the tabs)if they aren’t on the entire site?

My first post came off a little flame-ish but that post and this one are not meant to be. The new site is amazing to look at. It’s just that interface bugs are just as important as the technical ones. I am just pointing them out.

To Derek - Thanks for listening by the way!

I don´t know, if somebody already has posted this link
It´s a very good article about the redesigning process of the expression engine/ellislab/ websites!!!
edit: oh, such a shame, Buddy had the same idea only 4 or 5 posts bevor…

As to the case of the disapearing tabs, the Yahoo! Design Pattern Library’s Navigation Tabs Pattern might prove useful.

Tab navigation should be maintained on all pages that are linked to by the tab set.

Ok, ok, ok…

The new Express Engine website is #$#&#xin;g awesome! I just saw the Support and Knowledge Base sections… wow. Just. Wow. It’s functional, beautiful, has great whitespace, and most of all: it doesn’t feel like a single bit of screen space is wasted.

Kudos to 31three.com. Will the CodeIgniter site get the same loving touches?

Primathon, and any others with similar complaints:

1) Header logo link.  These were intended to have “Forums”, “Wiki”, etc. in the text.  With the scope of things, time frame, and limited personnel, some small mistakes like that did slip through.  Will be fixed soon.

2) Consistent navigation.  If you switch back to the old “Grey” forum theme, you’ll find a similar lack of links to other areas of the site except for the forums and the home page.  Why is this such a glaring error now, but wasn’t for the past year?  I’ll see about reworking the header to be similar to the one in ExpressionEngine’s forums, which has its own nav structure as part of the EE support mini-site so that these valuable links are available throughout.  They will not be styled similar to the CI homepage, though; this forum theme and the CI design are familial but not intended to be part and parcel.  This was intentional so that the same forum theme could be used on EE, CI, and PMP.

3) Bookmarks, existing forum links broken.  I’ve added this to my list; I honestly thought it was taken care of already.

why bother merging the EE and CI forums if I can’t access both (you even say in the news post that “Once you are a member of one site, you’re a member at all sites”)?  For example, the home page for the ExpressionEngine Forums is just… well, blank.  Why?

Perhaps if you used the correct link…

Seriously, all of these complaints are legitimate, and the site and the community will benefit from these changes.  But the way some are choosing to express them among this community frankly shocks me.  I expected greater understanding for miniscule errors during this transition from the CI community in kind with the amount of attention and resources the entire EllisLab team is giving CodeIgniter.  At least most are, though, and that is encouraging.

Derek Jones - 21 March 2007 08:08 AM

1) Header logo link.  These were intended to have “Forums”, “Wiki”, etc. in the text.  With the scope of things, time frame, and limited personnel, some small mistakes like that did slip through.  Will be fixed soon.

That’s good news :)  I just wanted to make sure something like this was on your radar.

Derek Jones - 21 March 2007 08:08 AM

2) Consistent navigation.  If you switch back to the old “Grey” forum theme, you’ll find a similar lack of links to other areas of the site except for the forums and the home page.  Why is this such a glaring error now, but wasn’t for the past year?

Thing is, it was just as much of an error then as it is now - I just never ran across a thread asking for my opinion on the site design before.  I understand your concerns on wanting to use the same design between sites, but you also need to take into account how your users are going to be navigating it.  (edit: I checked out the nav structure on the EE forums, and it’s, well, pretty much perfect.  Hopefully something like that will get implemented soon for CI.)

Derek Jones - 21 March 2007 08:08 AM

3) Bookmarks, existing forum links broken.  I’ve added this to my list; I honestly thought it was taken care of already.

Again, I’m glad to see that you guys are on top of it.

Derek Jones - 21 March 2007 08:08 AM

Perhaps if you used the correct link…

I got that link from trying to find some old threads and using the breadcrumb navigation at the top.  For example, if you look at (picked at random) post 10000, you’ll see “ExpressionEngine Forums” linked up at the top.  Clicking on that, however, gives you the invalid link that I posted.  Maybe something you guys want to look into?

I apologize if I came of as unnecessarily overbearing in my above post.  I’m not a usability nazi by any means, but it’s really irritating to have to work around some of these errors (although I am really glad to see that you seem to be working on them).  Honestly, the work you guys are putting into CI is phenomenal.  I guess what I’m trying to say is, if you made a thread asking for what we like about CI, I would have a whole lot more to say on the topic :)

The logo alterations make sense.

The reason these issues weren’t brought up before is that there was never a feedback topic. Also, the old site didn’t have tabs or site navigation at all. It wasn’t designed so I never felt the need to say anything.

But all of this is pointless. It’s obvious you don’t appreciate me bringing it up by the tone of your most recent post so I am done. Didn’t mean to rile anyone’s feathers. Some people notice code bugs, I notice interface bugs. CI isn’t an interface tool it’s a coding tool so I’m going back to the app forums to figure out why my method chaining the active record class isn’t working!

Again, I apologize for any inferred rudeness. I was just trying to help.

blackhalobender, read into my response as you wish.  The points are all appreciated.  For the record, my reply was directed to Primathon’s last post, which I thought the point by point would be a clear indication of (and Primathon, I thank you for your latest response).  If you are finding that you are coming across as more caustic and ill-willed than you wished, perhaps let a post sit in preview for an hour, and read over it at the end of that space of time before posting it publicly.

I think it’s also relevant to note that this topic was created by a community member, and not any of the staff at EllisLab.  Derek Allard didn’t even come into it until the end of the first page.  The thread and points are perfectly welcome now, just as it would have been anytime in the past year.  But don’t act like we came seeking out your specific advice and are now spurning it.  That’s simply not true.

Derek Jones - 21 March 2007 02:49 PM

But don’t act like we came seeking out your specific advice and are now spurning it.  That’s simply not true.

Publishing anything these days is asking for feedback, imho. Specific was the key word there.

Weird thing is it’s not my specific advice. I was just pointing out errors in the implementation of common user interface elements. It’s like pointing out bugs in a login script. The only difference is that they have been categorized as “complaints,” by Derek.

I must be coming off on the offensive, it’s the only reason Derek is being so defensive. It’s totally unintended though (though not infrequent).

My final feedback on the redesign: It’s really really nice to look at. I keep going back to the home page to marvel at it’s beauty. They hired one of the best web designers in the world and got what they paid for.

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I get this whenever I log in, FYI.